S8E4 -- Beyond 515: Shanda Hill’s Ultra Triumphs And Farewell

A world record in 225 hours. Stitches on a gym floor. A typhoon, a temple, and a white bucket that might save your race. I sat down with IUTA Hall of Famer, Shanda Hill, to unpack the mindset, methods, and meaning behind one of the most audacious ultra tri careers ever—and the moment she chose health over history.

Shanda breaks down the true shape of a DECA continuous: 10x Iron distance where the clock never stops and every decision is magnified. She shares the practical systems that carried her—soup-based fueling that works in cold pools, a hydration check using a white bowl to protect kidney function, and a sleep strategy tied to safety and weather rather than ego. We talk oxygen therapy, cold-water immersion, and why time management can beat raw speed across 38 km of swimming, 1,800 km of cycling, and 422 km of running.

The stories are wild and human: riding through a South African deluge, resetting in Brazil to chase a record, crashing in France and getting field-stitched by a fellow racer, and learning the hard way in Poland how one pedal choice can sabotage your stabilizers. Along the way, Shanda spotlights the ultra community—race directors who make impossible events happen, rivals who lift the bar, and athletes finishing doubles and decas with broken bones and unbroken resolve.

If you’re training for Ultraman, DECA, or your own endurance goal, you’ll leave with clear, actionable insights on fueling, electrolytes, recovery, and the mental game that keeps you moving loop after loop.

Contact Shanda at : https://www.shandahillultra.com/

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• IUTA Hall of Fame
• Taiwan Ultra Deca
• Bretzel Ultra Triathlon (Colmar, France)
• Desenzano del Garda (Triple Deca)
• IUTA World Cup 
• Ultra Tri South Africa (Deca)
• Ultra 520K Canada 
• Brazil Ultra Tri (Deca)
• Double Ultra Triathlon Emsdetten
• Poland Ultra Triathlon (Deca)
• Triathlon Triple Lensahn
• Double Deca Mexico
• Switzerland Double Deca
• Virginia Triple Anvil 
• UB515 

Shout outs and mentions in this episode:

• Jacs Spence
• Starting Block
• Rancho Vignola
• Eve-volve Wellness
• Reatha Rousseau
• Steve Brown
• Blaine Ponte  
• Leah Goldstein
• Sergio Cordeiro
• World record holder deca
• Deca Dave Clamp  
• Jorge Rodriguez 
• Mark hohe dorst
• Brad Kelley
• Gustavo Vieira 
• Lia Sterciuc
• Harriet Clamp
• Marius Butuc (S8E1)
• Anelia Butuc
• Ming Ye 
• Ronny Rossler 
• Norbert Luffenberger
• Tyrese Hill
• Micheal Ward
• Beto Villa 
• Wayne Kurtz 
• Laurent Quignette
• Heidi Lindemann 
• Jade Medders
• Paul Bedard
• Daniel Oliveira 
• Tomasz Lus 

If this conversation fired you up, follow the show and share it with a friend who loves big goals.

Chapters

• 0:00 Five-Year Milestone And Broader Focus
• 2:36 Meet Shanda Hill And Her Records
• 5:30 What A DECA Really Is
• 9:10 Loops, Elevation, And Mental Grit
• 12:45 Funding, Work, And Making It Happen
• 16:12 Oxygen Therapy, TBI, And Recovery
• 20:42 Cold Water, Daily Dips, And Inflammation
• 23:15 South Africa DECA: Heat, Storms, And Lead
• 30:16 Brazil DECA: Facility, Heat, And First Record
• 36:20 Sleep Versus Speed: Strategy Shifts
• 40:58 Community Legends And Rivalries
• 44:36 DNS vs DNF And Smart Decisions
• 48:26 Colmar DECA: Heat, Crash, Field Stitches
• 55:05 Poland DECA: Pedals, Stabilizers, And Finish
• 1:00:30 Massage, Tools, And Time Management
• 1:03:55 Why The Stories Matter Most
• 1:06:40 Germany Triple: Knowing When To Stop
• 1:10:30 Taiwan DECA: Temples, Typhoon, And DNF
• 1:18:00 Chlorine, Lungs, And Retirement Decision
• 1:25:40 Favorite And Hardest Races
• 1:36:10 Foot Care Nightmares And Donkeys
• 1:43:20 Mental Game, Training Without Training
• 1:48:30 Alligator Wrestling And Saying Yes
• 1:52:40 What’s Next: Rest, Baking, And Gratitude
• 2:15:10 Closing Thanks And Future Guests

Transcript

Larry: 0:01

Hey everyone, it's your host Larry Ryan here with a brief announcement before today's episode. Later this month, Five Fifteen the Ultra Podcast will be celebrating five years of podcasting. It's been a fascinating trip where I've had the privilege of speaking with many of the amazing people that make up the Ultra family. One of the guiding principles of who I spoke with on the podcast was that they were a part of the 515 community. Well, after five years, I've decided that I would expand that niche slightly. So going forward, I am opening the window to having the odd episode with guests from other parts of the ultra community. Whether that's ultra swimming, ultra cycling, or ultra marathoning, they will not have to have a 515 connection. So if you know of some great athletes that fit that bill, please let me know. As of now, this podcast has been downloaded in over 2,500 different cities and 145 countries. I may be reaching 515 niche saturation. So I hope that going outside the 515 family for the odd podcast will help to find a greater audience. As always, you are my best advocate for reaching new listeners. So please tell your friends to listen and send them some links to episodes that you think they will enjoy. There are now over 110 episodes available for free in the podcast library. So happy fifth anniversary to me. And if you've been along for the ride, to you as well. Let's get on to today's show. This one's for you. She has completed seven decas with five starts the past year alone, and she's the only person to complete three double decas continuous. And she was the first woman to complete a triple deca continuous and holds the IUTA record in that event. She also holds the women's world record for the most IUTA iron distances completed all time. With all of that on her resume, you won't be surprised to know that she's been inducted into the IUTA Hall of Fame. After battling a typhoon at the Taiwan Deca late last year, she announced her retirement. She is joining us today from her home in Vernon, British Columbia to discuss her career, that recent retirement, and what the future holds. Welcome to the podcast, Shonda Hill. Hello.

Shanda: 3:29

Thank you, Larry. Hello, how are you?

Larry: 3:32

I'm well. Thank you. Thanks for coming and doing the podcast with us.

Shanda: 3:35

You betcha.

Larry: 3:37

So I mentioned all those uh accolades and things that you've accomplished after all of the events that you've competed in in 2025, which we'll get into in a few moments. What is that record standing at for the most iron distance triathlons complete at all time?

Shanda: 3:55

Oh gosh, I'm at 175 right now.

Larry: 3:59

175. Amazing. And in 2025, you set out to complete another record for iron distant races in a single year, which is why you had so many decas in 2025. What were you aiming for for the 2025 year? And uh were you able to get to that number?

Shanda: 4:21

Um, I was I was initially uh I had four decas initially planned, uh a double, a triple, and um the double and the triple I DNF. I don't think I'm cut out to do short distance races. And uh then halfway through the season, Taiwan added a Decca on at the end with the UTA race calendar. And so the the goal was to hit the 50 by doing the decas alone. So kind of changed a little bit from having an initial 45 to you know scrapping the triple and the double and going for going for the five decas in one year.

Larry: 5:03

That's incredible. And and and the fact that you call a double and a triple short, it's also incredible.

Shanda: 5:10

Uh yeah, it's relative in the whole scheme of things, but you know, it's it's a whole different animal. I think it's probably the equivalent of a marathon runner going and doing a 5k, and it's a completely different program.

Larry: 5:30

Well, I'm sure most of the people listening to this podcast are familiar with these various distances that we started talking about in the introduction. But just in case, uh can you describe what a DECA is and what are the total distances covered in that?

Shanda: 5:45

Okay. So a DECA uh in the continuous format, uh, once the clock starts, it doesn't stop. And you have the equivalent distance of 10 full iron distance races. So that would be a 38 kilometer swim, 1800 kilometer bike, and a 422 kilometer run.

Larry: 6:05

Right. Yeah. And in the DECA format, you hold the record um at 225 hours, 10 minutes and 25 seconds. Does that sound right to you?

Shanda: 6:19

That was set in Colmar this year.

Larry: 6:22

Yeah, amazing. And and in the triple Decca, uh, you also have a record of, and I can't even believe that this is a number, 974 hours. What does that equate to? How long were you doing this race? That's 30 times iron distance.

Shanda: 6:43

Uh four 40.6 days, Barry.

Larry: 6:48

And and and in that, are you are you running that? Was that one a continuous as well? Was it a continuous clock, or was that a daily, or was it broken up in some other format?

Shanda: 6:58

That was a continuous. So the swim is uh 114 kilometers, the bike is 5600, and the run is 1256.

Larry: 7:12

And and usually these types of events are done on smaller courses, right? Where they're doing a lot of loops.

Shanda: 7:20

That's I think that is the thing that shocks most people the most when you tell them about it. Is you know, the bike was just over seven kilometer loop and then had 40 meters elevation gain, just over 40 meters elevation gain per loop. So our total climbing was something like one and a half times Mount Everest. But we had just like absolutely miserable little hill on the little body, yeah, 40 meters at a time. And I think the bike uh don't quote me on this because all the numbers after a while blur, but I think the bike was about 18 days, and the the most shocking part of that was my body seemed to adjust to it, and I was actually logging more miles at the end towards the end of the bike than I was at the beginning, and that's the most one of the most interesting things that happened during Italy, during the triple deck.

Larry: 8:20

Wow, yeah. And and you can correct me if I'm wrong. Are you also the only Canadian uh to be the IUTA World Cup champion?

Shanda: 8:32

You know, I don't I don't know uh if any of any Canadians have ever hit that in the past. I haven't gone into the Insta archives and looked. Uh currently, in the time I've been racing, as far as I know, yes.

Larry: 8:47

But and you did that in 2017.

Shanda: 8:50

2017, and I just got the results yesterday that uh I was again this year the Canadian.

Larry: 8:58

I I yeah, I was gonna say, and and you must have gotten it for 2025 as well.

Shanda: 9:05

My my um one of my chief competition hails from France, and you know, we kind of go back and forth all year long egging each other on. Yeah. And I just found out that you know he he's a very, very consistent racer and and really strong in the run section. But I can't I came out with four fourteen fourteen hundred, I think, and thirty-five points, and he came out with fourteen hundred and thirty-three only because only because um I had the world record this year, even though he won all of his races, I got more points for having you know a world record. And so I I just can't imagine how excited he'll be to look at the points, and you know.

Larry: 9:56

Uh yeah. Technicalities.

Shanda: 10:00

Yeah. So yeah, I just found out about that yesterday.

Larry: 10:05

Oh, that's fantastic. Congratulations.

Shanda: 10:08

Thank you.

Larry: 10:09

Yeah. Um can can I ask you what what kind of job do you have that allows you to take this much time off and still pay for all of these races that you compete in?

Shanda: 10:20

Oh, it's been it's it's been such such a struggle uh over the years, you know, and there's there's so many hours I've worked, and I landscape and I work at a second job uh called Rancho Vignola. They're an importer for dried fruit and nuts. And uh it hasn't been easy, Larry. There's been very, very many ways to try and be creative. And in the end, uh Jax, who was running my website and you know, doing all of the media side of things, he set up a fundraiser, and that made a huge difference this year, allowing you know people to to pitch in and support and not come back from these races as much in the negative as I have been in prior years. But it's oh Larry, it's never ever been easy. But my only thoughts on that is the harder you have to fight for something and the more hours you have to grind for it, the the more motivation you have when you get to a race and you just dug in tooth and nail to get there and put everything in. You know, you go without a lot of things. That's the the longer, the short of it is. If you if you don't have a six-figure income, yeah, you have to you have to really grind to make things happen. You you just you know, sacrifice in certain areas, and that's just is what it is.

Larry: 11:52

Yeah, yeah. I I think probably obviously for a lot of the people that do ultra events and travel the world doing these things, they do come from a generally uh higher income bracket, but but there are people like you out there that do it as well. Um, what what do you think you've uh you've given up over the years to be able to pursue this?

Shanda: 12:16

I I try not to look at it like given up so much as in a social life or anything like that, because I wouldn't say I had a a great social life in the first place. No, I'm joking. I'm I'm joking. I I have a really incredible ultra family, yeah. And you know, I I do have quite a bit of balance at home, aside from you know, a lot of working, but you I don't know what a normal life is per se, anyway. So I don't really know what I've I don't know what I've given. I've never drank in my entire life, so I don't really have the same type of social life as some people might have, you know, going out and having a beer or anything, because I've that's not not something I've ever done in the first place.

Larry: 13:05

Yeah. So well, it it seems to me that um when you get into a position like you, you are in where you you show in your talent and you you're one of the best athletes in Canada at the thing that you do, you would think, and and probably in other countries, there is some support for people reaching to this level. But I know for I mean, even Olympic athletes in Canada are grinding their own sponsorships. Uh, have you been able to reach out or make connections with any sponsors?

Shanda: 13:40

Um, my sponsors that I've had have all been in in kind. And so, you know, the starting block, they pitched in shoes and socks and you know, are really incredibly supportive this year. Rancho kicks in food and um yeah, Evolve. They they kicked in oxygen therapy sessions, you know, at cost. So I was able to have access to things I I wouldn't have access to prior because they've helped out that way. So I'm just super grateful for that. But having having a brother that uh traveled the the national circuit on the Canadian snowboard team, seeing the struggle that he went through and you know, maybe I would say lack lack thereof for funding, it's I've really, you know, I've really gotten to pay attention to that quite closely. And I just for me, I just balance it and I have to say I'm just grateful that I can do something like this, regardless of whether it costs me an arm and a leg, because how many people get to do something that you know they're able to do in the first place? I I think I would be entitled to say somebody has to pay for me. Maybe there is issues with lack of funding, and but can everybody afford to be paid for to do something they love? I I think that would be very entitled of me to say that somebody should be paying me to do it.

Larry: 15:06

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Shanda: 15:07

So I'm I'm just grateful.

Larry: 15:09

Yeah, and and it is like you are in Vernon and for the worldwide audience, that is just a stone's throw away from Penn Tickton, which most of them will know as our triathlon capital in Canada. And there is a good community there as well, right? I'm sure, like you're saying, you've had your in-kind sponsors. Um, the people will step up from time to time and help out when they when they see one of their own that is doing well.

Shanda: 15:34

I think it's absolutely amazing that anybody would want to chip in um to a sport like this that's so niche that's you know, it doesn't get a lot of recognition, so it's not you know widely publicized for sponsors to be getting a bang for their buck, so to speak. Right. Um, and and it's way off the beaten path for the traditional iron brand distance. So I'm super grateful, Larry. I'm just lucky to be able to have done what I've done.

Larry: 16:01

Yeah. And and you were mentioning oxygen therapy. Is this something that's a regular part of your your training and recovery? And and what tell us a little bit more about how you use that.

Shanda: 16:12

Um initially, uh, my ex-partner he looked into this because I I knew nothing of it, but I had had some damage to my lungs uh prior and then you know, repetitively in in the swimming pool, which has led to, you know, the coming the coming of what's happened this year with my retirement. But to to backtrack a bit, he had looked into it and basically said, you know, you need to look into this. I think it's really gonna help the issues you've had with your lungs over the years. And that was how I got into oxygen therapy. Uh, and it's it's made a tremendous difference. I've noticed a huge difference with it.

Larry: 16:55

And and so it's it's helpful for your particular case with your lungs. Do you feel like it also helps you to recover?

Shanda: 17:02

It's made a huge difference in my recovery. Uh, if if anybody can have access to it or are able to get, you know, I you hear a lot of people that are struggling with uh a number of other health issues, not related even to lungs, you know, and and just to to help in general with some serious issues, you know, cancer patients and and people that are finding it really beneficial for their health too, regenerative-wise. Um it's it's been a real asset to a lot of people. So it's definitely definitely helped me. I'm I'm grateful for it.

Larry: 17:42

And uh when doing my research on you, I found out that you also suffered from a traumatic brain injury previously from a from a car accident. Uh, do you feel like maybe that's even helped you out a little bit there? Or are you are you to the mind that well, my brain is what my brain is at this point?

Shanda: 18:03

Yeah, yeah, there there is uh um there has been some research mentioned, which I won't I won't quote, mentioned about the blood-brain barrier and oxygen therapy and how it contributes to helping. I I notice a sharpness afterwards. Um, and maybe from flooding that that area with oxygen, you know, maybe forcing oxygen to the cells. I I notice that it's really helped, but it's also I get I get the same type of benefits from ice water swimming, you know, and and that to me is really fascinating because that's that's oxygen deprivation. So very, very interesting, but also uh extreme uh reduction of inflammation from ice water in the brain area. So my speculation is that would be contributing to the the flush of oxygenated blood, you know, rushing to your heart from your brain when it's put in a stressful situation like that.

Larry: 19:14

Right. Yeah.

Shanda: 19:15

Speculation though, Larry.

Larry: 19:18

Well, we get we get a sample of one to prove it. Uh what it one of the things that people listen to the podcast for is they're always looking for, you know, training tips and hacks and stuff like that. So, you know, maybe this is something that other people want to try. I mean, everybody was doing the the ice bath challenge there for a while.

Shanda: 19:39

So Larry, I've been I've been doing routine creek dips almost every day when I come home from races. Oh yeah. Yeah, and ice ice baths all winter, swimming in the ice, and I've been doing that since 2014. There's an interesting story we can cover later to go with that, but I'm I'm going on you. know almost 10 years just over 10 years of going in ice water and doing cold water therapy and it's it's been incredible for me. I mean a perfect example is you know we had seven inches of snow a couple of weeks ago and I went out and I was shoveling for three or four hours and my shoulder always feels like it's being ripped out of its socket afterwards. I go get in the creek which is probably one degree right now I running ice water I get in that creek and I just immerse myself right up to my neck. And the next day I'm functioning. So there's there's no denying for me it's it's been a real asset.

Larry: 20:40

Yeah. Yeah. Um well let's let's take a look at some of these races you've done this year. Uh I want to hear about these different events and I can't believe you were able to squeeze this many events into one year when you're doing you know decas uh you you you opened the year in South Africa at the Ultra Tri South Africa DECA. You you were able to grab first place there. And this was I think you mentioned it earlier this was the first time they added a DECA into the ultra tri event there is that correct that was the first time that South Africa has hosted a DECA event ever. Yeah yes and and I know that if if I'm got my my research correct uh Retha Russo was the race director is that correct uh yes Rieta Rieta sorry yes I I I actually I met her in Pentacton at the 520K Canada she came there to race um the race that the legendary Steve Brown puts on or was putting on after he left the Ultraman brand um yeah so I had an opportunity to meet her um what what was it like um racing in the in the heat of South Africa? I believe it was hot at that time of year down there.

Shanda: 21:57

Well now that I've been to Brazil later in the year and to compare it, you know, both having such high temperatures I feel really grateful for South Africa in retrospect because it was so dry and knowing what I know now comparing that to a very humid climate of Brazil I was spoiled rotten because if you put your clothes out to dry 15 minutes later they are dry. So you know as far as the laundry situation you don't even have to visit facilities you could literally just scrub a dub you know in a bucket hang it out to dry and 15 minutes later it'd be it'd be dry but if you look at the photos as far as it being super dry you look at the photos when I finished I look like I'm 55 years old like it dried me out into a prune it oh wow it's insane I look like I aged 20 years over 14 days.

Larry: 22:55

Do you have any special memories from that race that that you'll take away and and and have as the the thing that you know about that race?

Shanda: 23:02

South Africa the the sunsets were absolutely incredible uh one of the most memorable moments that I've never experienced like this in BC uh it was absolutely we had a torrential rainstorm and at least two to three inches of of rain on the road and myself and Blaine one of the other racers were the only two out on the track. Everybody else went into their tents and I was I was laughing because I felt almost even though I'm on my bike I felt like I was in a boat because you're just watching you're watching your tire cut through a couple inches of water and and you're horrified because you're thinking what what components of my bike is this destroying you know dirty dirty waters getting into everything but at the same part you're you're super amused because it's so warm that the rain is is very tolerable but you actually you could pretend that you're out boating and it's it's I it's hard to just coming up behind yeah you've got a wake coming up from your front tire and we just kept riding you know I I was very eager I was in the overall lead at that point uh with the men and I was very eager to to hold on to that lead and so I just buckled down and just kept riding and it turned out to be a really beautiful experience and after that you know the sun rose in the morning and it was just absolutely gorgeous. So it was a wild night though riding like we're you know a boat in a river and and how far were you into the ride at that point?

Larry: 24:37

Were you getting closer to the end where if your bike was getting damaged it wouldn't have mattered as much or were you right at the beginning?

Shanda: 24:44

Uh that was I think it was about halfway but my my bike took a beating I had to have all the cables replaced and everything else twice this year because riding in wet you know often there's very there's a lot of fines that get in your your gears get in right all of your components and yeah I did my head headset taken apart and rebuilt but it's it's par for the course but a lot of people don't realize you know there's a cost of of riding your bike that much and having to rebuild components having to to redo your cables and uh it all adds up it's all par for the course well you're you're riding a year's worth of riding for a lot of people in one in one race yeah they're gonna they're gonna do their tune up every year at least you're just and a lot of people don't they don't ride in three inches of water either you know for day after day in day out yeah what what uh we're as we're talking about riding long distances what what's your secret for being in the saddle that long how do you how do you manage that you know it's going it's going to be uncomfortable uh the biggest difference that I've learned between when I started and now when I started I did my first decade in unpadded gym shorts oh wow on a hard saddle and after three days of being in the saddle I assumed that it was normal and everybody else was feeling the way that I was I didn't know about chamois butter I didn't know about lidocaine and I think about it now and I think I cannot believe with the limited knowledge that I had that I actually survived my first Deca knowing what I know now and knowing you know how I survived that first decay. I just assumed that it was normal to feel like chopped liver and that is that is not normal Larry yeah so what what kind of saddle do you use now? I bought a padded saddle off of Amazon.

Larry: 26:58

So I ride on a padded seat okay and let's let's not joke around the difference between day one and day six day 10 day 18 like in Italy 18 days on your seat is going to suck and you have to just decide every pressure point after a while is going to hurt the difference is is I try and you know change positions a lot more often you know upright semi upright full on arrow and if I can do that you realize there's going to be pain and you just have to accept it and minimize it where you can yeah do you tend to change your setup during a race to to change your geometry like do you move the seat do you move the bars at all or do you just change within the the setup itself the where you put your hands uh the only thing that I've ever done is change the height of my seat and that was simply because Leia Goldstein mentioned to me she said you look like you're a little bit high and I hadn't factored in you know the cushion on the the extra patent seat that I'd added in so that that made a bit of a difference but that's that's the only thing I've ever changed. Oh yeah and what what are the rules around using different bikes when you're in these races is that allowed or do you have an emergency bike if something goes wrong? How does that work?

Shanda: 28:26

Um every race every race varies a lot of riders like in Europe if they're driving to a race they'll bring a secondary bike we wear a chip around our ankle so if you were to switch out to another bike or a backup bike it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference. But uh I I typically have one bike and then sometimes race directors will have a loner bike um back when I started I went to Mexico in 2017 and the race director had a really incredible uh bike mechanic there and if you had a flat he would ride out he would give you his bike and just you know go and he would take your bike back and uh fix it and then as quickly as possible get you back on it. So oh great yeah I mean every race is different though you know it it just depends on what the race director can offer but yeah yeah well let's move on to your to your second race of the year uh you had like what just over a month in between these races you started the beginning of May for the Brazil Ultra Tri DECA again getting a first place congratulations uh can you tell me a little bit about uh how that was how was the weather down there you said it was even hotter did you get some tropical rains what what was it like and and do you have any memories from that race that you're holding and for every race is so unique you know because you you face whether it's we had absolutely uh wild climbs in South Africa a lot of elevation and then we go to Brazil where the course is the first course I've ever ridden that is a triathlon only course there's nobody else on it except the racers it is a one-way you know course for the most part and predominantly flat except for some some fairly sharp curves so you gotta be paying attention when you're tired out there and racing but yeah it's the facility in Brazil is absolutely incredible nothing like I've seen anywhere racing before it's all fenced off I think one of the guys saw a coffee barrel once that got onto the course but for the most for the most part no wildlife even it's it's all it's very trispecific the the pool is maybe 50 meters from where the bike course is that's that's unheard of and the run course is just over a kilometer almost right next to where the bike course is so Brazil had rainstorms not a lot but when it rained it really poured and really unique because if you put your laundry out you know to hang out to dry on the fences you've got to get it back in real quick if it gets dry because otherwise everything's just gonna be wet the next the next day but uh it was Brazil was a really incredible race I hadn't set out when I when I got there I hadn't set out to um to try and take on the world record at that course the current world record um I think it was 248 hours and uh I ended up getting towards you know I didn't want to focus on numbers I wanted to focus just on my race to do as well as I could my ex-partner was there um crewing and uh I said to him you know when he mentioned numbers I said to him don't talk to me about anything for the last day of the race and I said if I if I am feeling good or you know in the last day or two if if I can if I can push then we'll talk about numbers but don't ruin my race because I don't want to focus on numbers. I just want to do the best I can and it was I had scheduled uh about three hours of sleep every night on the run portion and it's getting down to the last you know I don't know maybe 150 kilometers and Andy says to me he says I think you can do it but you're gonna have to maybe not sleep tonight and I thought oh well you know I'm this far in I might as well you know so yeah and so when it came down to it the final bush was on and and uh I was able to take on the current world record at the time so when I decided to really go for it in in Comar in France the the next month right that was to try and beat out my own time in prison. That's awesome it was never about numbers in the first place it just yeah if you're in good enough shape and you think you can do it then why not?

Larry: 33:25

It just happens yeah yeah yeah so um just picking up on what you were saying there about your your strategy of sleeping um what what have you done over the years how have you developed your your race strategy for approaching sleep and and whatever recovery you can get and and obviously nutrition too like what are what are the things that you do in these these big races and and who did you learn from over the years Larry my nutrition has changed so many times and I think if you talked to me in 10 years it would continually change because I feel like from every single experience I was able to take one thing or two things and and continue to fine tune everything and only recently am I really starting to get things down pat.

Shanda: 34:18

So I I good time to retire oh Larry I didn't I didn't want to retire Larry I had I had Brazil planned I had South Africa planned for 2026 I it was I it was not I want to say I have to look at it with gratitude otherwise I'll I'll just probably live every every day with devastation because it's really I I said I was gonna go until I didn't love it anymore. Right it and I very much love it. I don't want to stop and the hardest part is I feel like if I wasn't dealing with you know the issue with my lungs and chlorine my body Larry still could do some really incredible things so it's very it's a very hard thing and the only thing that helps minimize my my feelings about this is to just try and look at it with gratitude because nobody's guaranteed forever.

Larry: 35:21

Right.

Shanda: 35:22

Yeah yeah special subject I apologize I uh I interrupted your your thoughts on your learning your nutrition over the years instead you got a race retirement rant no I was trying to save that for the end of the podcast you can cut and paste it's all good will probably one one of the most interesting things of late and especially in the last you know four decades uh for the swim part it it can be a real struggle a lot of people deal with um digestion issues acid reflux issues you know you're you're in a a position where you're horizontal and it's go go go go go and also whether you like it or not if you're a crappy swimmer like me you have to make the most of every moment and time management becomes key because there's never been a chance in my entire career where I could outswim any of the good swimmers but I could mitigate the damages by um having really good time management. So I I developed um kind of a foolproof way for my body to deal with the swimming and that was when you're in you know water for a long time it doesn't matter how how warm it is at some point when you're you become in caloric deficit your body temperature will drop the the longer the shortest is your body's 98 degrees and the pool isn't 98 degrees so you know with fatigue with time with you know sometimes being in an outdoor pool being cooked during the day and then it it cools a couple degrees at night all of those things can can drastically change somebody's race and I started putting together what I felt was a a really good solution for my body calorie wise with an equal balance of you know carbs, fats and protein that my body could easily assimilate. And that came down to soup. And so I would buy powdered yams powdered carrots and take powdered potatoes I'd grind up cashews in my coffee grinder and use a veggie stock and put together this soup that was enough to keep me somewhat sustained and when it was cold warm and also I'm getting you know I would add nutritional yeast I'm getting some B vitamins in there and my salts which are crucial and that seemed to for the last three decades out of the four that seemed to be a really really good mix for me to predominantly eat that as my caloric base over the course of 18 19 you know 16 to 22 hours.

Larry: 38:32

And and do you have any special dietary um um things that you follow like are you a vegan or vegetarian or uh it's it's a bit more complicated than that.

Shanda: 38:45

I I was I was raised by a by a vegan mother so that's a diet that my body knows best. I I alternated between vegetarian and ultimately when I race I noticed that I had the least amount of inflammation when I don't do any dairy outside of racing I can do dairy and it's not quite as harmful to my system but it's definitely not as much of a a conscious choice as it is my body seems to function better without it and I do pay a I do pay a price if I if I have dairy so I I kind of I kind of lean towards what my body knows the best and uh yeah so it's it's predominantly vegan but not super not super strict. I just know what I function best on probably just because the way I was raised yeah that's just what your body got used to and yeah you can function on it and it makes sense. Sometimes I think it would be much easier if if I had a traditional diet and could just shovel in anything but uh it is what it is and you you work with it and yeah uh you just get used to it and you You do the best you can, right?

Larry: 40:01

Yeah, yeah.

Shanda: 40:02

The guy next to you is eating hamburgers and pizzas and cheese will really hit me hard if I have cheese during a race. So I try not to.

Larry: 40:17

And and the other part of that question was what is the the sleep strategy? You were saying that you can kind of make up your swimming sometimes with good time management. So what's your what's your sleep strategy in these races?

Shanda: 40:28

No, so I don't I don't typically sleep during the swim section of the DECA. Yeah, but then um a lot of it will depend on how harsh the weather conditions are, of what my sleep schedule is in the bike. But typically starting out this year with South Africa, I was on a pretty rigid three-hour sleep uh per night or day, depending on when I was taking my sleep. And then sometimes, if I was really tired, um a really short nap. But that's one other thing that the oxygen therapy treatments made a huge difference because when I started racing decas, I was sleeping six hours a night and I could not function on less than six hours a night. And then as my racing career progressed and I started doing oxygen therapy, I was able to get my sleep down to three hours a night consistently at uh every every single DECA. So a lot of a lot of time there's so many varying factors, but typically the hours, you know, 3 a.m., 4 a.m. in the morning is when it's coldest at most races. And it's also sometimes you'll base your sleep schedule around the fact that there'll be no other riders out there because when there's no other riders out there, a lot of the time you don't want to be out there alone, depending on where you're at. And that is if you break down, you know, we we depend on each other a lot as riders for you know, even say you're in a country with no cell service or no cell service on the course, and you count on the other riders to let somebody know if you've got a flat on course. So for the safety of each other, unless you're hell bent on breaking a record, then uh quite often when there's nobody on, you know, then you'll you'll a bit of a a break.

Larry: 42:27

A little bit before when we were talking, and you were saying that uh, you know, you wanted to be able to do this until you felt like you couldn't do it anymore while you were in Brazil. You were in the presence of somebody who has that exact life. Mr. Sergio Cordero, who was able to, at the age of 70, complete another decka. What is it like to be on course with Sergio?

Shanda: 42:54

Sergio is uh remarkable in the way that he is so joyful. I don't know if it's because he's just out there and just doing something he loves, or if he loves being with the people, but he's an absolute joy to compete with. He's always smiling, he's humming away, he's just out there doing his thing at his pace. And to compete with Sergio is is a joyful experience. There's it's absolutely remarkable. I first first met him in Italy. Um, and he's just he's just a really remarkable human.

Larry: 43:34

Yeah, yeah. He he, of course, has done, I don't know, probably 20 Ultraman events, uh, and does the the UB515 in Brazil pretty regular. Um, I'm not sure if he's lining up to do it again, but uh he obviously could. He's he's still got it.

Shanda: 43:51

Third young Ghee Rossi Rossi are two of uh two of the definite legends in the sport. Ghee holds the record right now uh for 10 decas finished, which right at current is the most decadent continuous that has been done, you know, as of the date. I imagine in the next year that Decca Dave will be passing him, but uh he still holds the current record. And I was privileged to race with B. Rossi in his retirement race, his retirement deca in 2018 in Mexico.

Larry: 44:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm sure like when people uh talk about the the Ultraman community and the Ultraman family, you know, it's it's a little bit bigger than probably what your family is. And it's already small. So the people that you see are gonna be very much the same people showing up, I imagine, quite a bit. Uh if you're if you're doing this at multiple events.

Shanda: 44:54

The the the ultra family at the long distances, DECA, double deca, and you know, triple decad. It is definitely a select group, but we have seen quite a bit of growth even in the time that I've been in the sport. And I think it's a real privilege to see that. And I also feel so lucky to be racing at this point in time because we're getting a mix of some of the, you know, the the very first guys out there still racing and haven't quite retired yet. And they're mixed in with some of the new generation, and I've had the privilege of meeting a lot of them, and I just it's extraordinary. I I feel I feel so so humbled in that sense, and I feel like I got into the sport at such a perfect time that I get I get to meet all these people. It's so cool.

Larry: 45:44

Yeah, that's awesome.

Shanda: 45:45

Yeah, yeah.

Larry: 45:46

Uh um okay, well, let's let's get off of Brazil. Uh your next event was the double ultra triathlon. Um, on your website, it was listed as a DNF. Was it a DNF or a DNS?

Shanda: 46:01

It was a DNF.

Larry: 46:03

Okay. And it was traveled all the way there.

Shanda: 46:06

Well, this was the thinking. When I planned, when I planned my race schedule out, I had never, you know, because you're looking at an $1,800 just to travel to Europe on a flight, yeah. I had never had the privilege of being able to just fly somewhere for a double. It it seemed it seemed too short a race to put in such a huge amount of money and then turn around and come home. So my whole plan this year was if I was gonna be uh in that area anyway, why not throw that in? Because it was part of the race schedule.

Speaker 5: 46:45

Gotcha.

Shanda: 46:46

And I I hadn't planned on it being a DNF either, but uh, you know, you came came out of of my last race, you know, about a week before, and got onto this double, and the bike was going okay. It wasn't a spectacular bike. And I got off the bike and started to have some hot spots in my feet, and quickly realized that as it started to rain, I was gonna end up with some major foot issues based on how my feet were at the time. And if I was gonna push it, I was gonna sink myself for the race that was coming, you know, less than a week and a half after. And unfortunately, the race a week and a half after was a big deal. That was Colmar. I didn't know Colmar was gonna be a world record going into it. Um, and I definitely didn't know in M's Debton that that was gonna happen. But I'm I look back in hindsight and I just think that was a really great decision. And do I have any regrets? Not a single one. I think it was the smartest choice I could have made as a racer, even though it would have been nice to finish a short race like a a double, I think it it wouldn't have been great.

Larry: 48:01

Right. Yeah, yeah. That's yeah, and and just for you, a short race, a double, adding that on as a as a warm-up the week before you're gonna do your your DECA. That just yeah, that makes sense. So that was Emsdutton, Germany, and then off to Colmar, France, just a week later for another continuous DECA. Um, can can you tell us a little bit about what went into making this your you know, your record rate and and what were some of the other fantastic events that happened while you're you're out there doing this one? How long how long, how many long was it in days for you?

Shanda: 48:43

Oh gosh, uh just over nine days.

Larry: 48:46

Okay. So in nine days, you must have at least nine great stories to share. Give us one or two.

Shanda: 48:52

Oh gosh. Um you know, well, it didn't rain once in nine days, which is remarkable. And the other thing that's extraordinary is temperature we were hitting 32 to 34 degrees. Our humidity is probably at least 70 percent. So it was hot, Larry. And I didn't know I'm I'm fairly fair-headed, light-skinned, and normally those kind of temperatures would cook me to a crisp. I still have no explanation how I survived that type of heat, especially you're living in a tent and you're cooking in a tent. So, you know, you you are in in the sun all the time. We face you know extraordinary heat. Uh, I'm baffled that I didn't shrivel up into a prune. And uh I was going into you know, averaging uh, you know, a couple hours sleep each night on the bike and really pushing hard. Uh, there's uh a fair number of other women racing, and for quite a while it was me and another gal overall in the lead ahead of the men. And I was giving it a real go. And it was one day, I think one day before I was supposed to get off the bike, and I'd stopped uh just to refill my water and stuff, and just right off the side of the course, unclipped one foot, and I think I was just a little bit tired and went to unclip my other foot. It didn't unclip for whatever reason. I fell over on my bike and smashed my ankle into my derailer and cut my ankle open. And I didn't realize at the time, I was more concerned that I'd smashed my knee into the cement, and I didn't realize that my ankle was cut open. So got up, thought, oh, my knee's gonna be puffy tomorrow. That's not so great, and just got up, got my water, and then started riding again, not realizing what I'd done to my ankle, you know, because you're in a bit of shock. So I raid the next nine-kilometer loop, and I'm thinking, why is why is there water in my shoe? And I'm not realizing that I'm bleeding into my shoe and that that my ankle is bleeding into my shoe. And uh the next round, I I stop at the main area where I'd you know bailed over and I pulled my uh of my skin pulled back, and I can see the phone in my ankle.

Speaker 5: 51:30

No, no.

Shanda: 51:31

This really sucks, but it sucks more because I don't have any butterfly clips and I have to race Poland in 12 days. That's all I was thinking about. You know, I've got another deck in Poland in 12 days.

Larry: 51:42

Already thinking ahead to the next one.

Shanda: 51:45

Sometimes sometimes you you really got to be thinking a lot, period, because so many things can be to the detriment of the next race if you're not you know paying attention on this race. Because I'm thinking this sucks. So I uh at that point the race director, you know, heard about what was going on and and said, you know, maybe you should go to the hospital. And I was like, I don't really have time for the hospital, so I'm just gonna keep going. And I mean I've got an incredible immune system in the first place. And in Mexico 2023, I had crashed and and cut open my knee, and it wasn't even an option for stitches because it was just reopening every time I cycled. So I'd had a bit of experience in the past with my body's immune system, and you know, clean it up and just go. And it took a couple months afterwards for my knee to actually close up. So I wasn't super concerned about my ankle, but I once again I underestimated that a little bit and kept riding for a while. And one of the other racers there, Jorge Rodriguez, he finally got a look at my ankle, and you know, I was taking a little bit of a timeout in the gym from the heat, and he walks up and he goes, you know, we're gonna put a couple stitches in this. Thinking, oh great, oh great. He gets out his, you know, his sewing kit because he's a surgeon back in the middle of the day.

Larry: 53:15

I was gonna say, is he a doctor?

Shanda: 53:18

He is. He's he's his stories are legendary, and maybe we can get into those, maybe we can't, depending on the time. But he's he's just an absolutely incredible human. And right there on the gym floor, he brings out this, you know, this big needle and he sticks it in my ankle. And uh, I said, Are you gonna wait? Like I didn't feel anything as far as numbing. And I I said, This is all on video. I said, Mario, are you you're gonna wait until the freezing takes effect? And he's like, Nope. And he pulls out his needle and and literally, probably from the time he did the first stitch, he did four in my ankle to the last stitch. It was less than a minute. He was so quick, that's good, and he pulled them tight. Time it looked like a bit of a mess. I didn't know how it was gonna heal, and it's it's pretty special looking, but uh he he did them well enough that they didn't just last me another day on the bike, they lasted through 422 kilometers of running after that, wow, which is ridiculously impressive, you know, considering it's right in the area where my socks and my side of my shoe rub on my ankle bones. So yeah, a bang up job and and kudos to Jorge for that. That made that race really special. It was a little bit extra painful because my ankle was always throbbing when I was running and it was throbbing when I was trying to sleep. Yeah, but definitely gave me a sense of urgency to try and finish it because I wanted to get off that ankle, ice it, and do what I could because I had Poland coming up, you know.

Larry: 55:02

A week later.

Shanda: 55:03

Just yeah, just over a week later. And I had to get back in the pool. And the quicker I could get that dry, the quicker I could get, you know, alcohol in it to dry it out, the better off my chances were of not having an infection going into Poland.

Larry: 55:17

So and and how much was Joré's bill?

Shanda: 55:23

Jorge did this absolutely free of charge, but you know, I'm probably gonna owe him owe him a one-way ticket to to Canada someday for a visit. He's incredible. He's incredible.

Larry: 55:37

And and and so, like, you probably have another record right there for just doing back-to-back decas, I'm guessing. It's essentially back-to-back decas. You you jump over to Poland and you're and you're into the next one right away.

Shanda: 55:51

Uh you know, I hate to say this, Larry, but it's all a bit of a blur.

Larry: 55:59

Okay.

Shanda: 56:00

You're functioning on not a lot of sleep. You're trying logistically to plan. I'm trying to even figure out how I got from France to Poland. I think I drove with one of the other racers, Mark. He gave me, yeah, he gave me a lift. Um, or no, was it Brad? No, it was Brad. I think Brad gave me a lift. Yeah, it's Brad who it's uh Brad Kelly. Brad Kelly. Um also on a super mission this year. Him and got the Gustavo uh Vieira. Gustavo started racing last year and did a double and comes out of the woodwork and does three decas this year. That's extraordinary. That's he's easy.

Larry: 56:47

That's a very fast acceleration.

Shanda: 56:49

It's the limits that we set are on ourselves. It is there's people out there breaking these barriers right here, right now, this year. And it's it's so cool for me to see because it just confirms what I've been telling people for so long is I don't feel like I'm extraordinary. I think I've just maybe I'm just a bit stubborn and willing to learn along the way, but anybody with reasonable health that decides they're gonna go out and you know do something big. Yeah, I think quite often we we set our bar too low when until we explore the possibilities, uh, we'll never really know. Yeah, and I think that a lot of us are more capable if if it was actually something we wanted to do, because the component of your your head and your heart matching, having that desire, that's a big, a very big component in whether you finish or not is are you are you all in? Are you invested in in that race?

Larry: 57:57

So and for you, you you are literally invested in the race, with you know, trying to get to these races on more of a shoestring budget than what we were saying, some people. So you automatically have well, I've I I'm invested in this race, I'm gonna get to the end.

Shanda: 58:18

The the larger your sacrifice, quite often, you know, the harder you have to work for it, the more when you have those moments where you're like, I want to quit. And especially in the beginning of my racing, I would just think, how many hours did you work to get here? And how many are you gonna have to work to do this all over again if you quit? So, and as I progress, though, you know, you have to know there are some races that you know what some things you just have to know when to walk, right? And I think that's the beauty of maturity is you know, sometimes it's okay, I think, to to make those calls. You just have to know yourself and know your body when to make those calls.

Larry: 59:04

Yeah, yeah. Well, obviously, I mean, for anybody that's doing distances like you, um, it's such a mental game. And you know, in in the Ultraman race, you you've got that at the end of the day, you go, you rest, you get uh, you know, a decent rest, and then you start your next day. But for someone like you who's doing loop after loop after loop, you you have multiple opportunities when you pull into your camp to be like, is this gonna be the last loop? How do you uh how do you mentally keep that going? What's your secret?

Shanda: 59:40

Oh well, that's it's it's funny you bring that up because that is one of the things when people find out that you do things in loops. I say, you know, you've you've got to find out what your what your motivation is, and that's part of the beauty of it is it really it breaks you down and makes Look at why you are doing this, what's your motivation? And you have an opportunity every loop to go in your tent and call it a day, or waste time on the side of the track, or all those things, and you have to look at you know what is my why, and I think the the biggest motivating factor for me is I've I've been truly I've been in love with the entire process, you know, treated it like a relationship where I've been all in and into the learning curve, into being there with the people, the the joy of the experience. And part of the fact that you can have plan A, B, C, and D, and plan F will have to come up at some point because sometimes nothing that you plan for works. So a lot of the time as I progress in racing, I've given up on any plan and I've just gone with it because that's actually the easiest route is to just roll with it, because so many things in South Africa, uh, in South Africa at the beginning of the year, I've never lost a toenail racing. It sounds absurd, but I've always worn shoes that are two sizes bigger, and it's proved really beneficial. At the very beginning of the run section, I tripped and I kicked a chunk of cement and I peeled my right toenail right up. And I almost thought to myself, you know, it's it's like you almost had it coming because you haven't had any toenails fall off prior to this, and it almost serves you right. So, you know, that that toenail reminded me the entire race that you know, are you you want to throw in the towel now, or you just it's gonna keep bleeding anyways? What's the difference? It's gonna feel crappy, anyways, right? You know, just just keep moving, just keep moving.

Larry: 1:02:10

How how many times have you posted photos of your feet online? It's an ultra thing to do.

Shanda: 1:02:19

Uh I you know, I try not to disgust people, but uh there is there's one memorable video um in 2017. Um we can't go much into the story because I think that I have to tell you the rest of the story for it to make sense. But in Mexico 2018, my feet were pretty trashed, and there's one gross Instagram video that was posted in. I think I toned it down after that. So yeah.

Larry: 1:02:59

Um so with the the Poland race. Um how does that one end up for you? You're you're you're in first place again. It's been a it's been a good podium year for you. Um were you in contention with the men in that one as well, or how how did that race unfold?

Shanda: 1:03:21

Um well, every race that year I'd been in contention with the men and uh on the bike, especially. And logistically speaking, because I'd gone into Brazil, it'd been really good. I'd I bettered you know my time in France. Obviously, I was gonna go into Poland and I was thinking to myself, you know, you're in the best shape of your life, and you've had a little bit of a break, not a lot, but I was feeling good. Your body just adjusts. And Poland for the first you know, a couple hours in the swim, I was sick, I was throwing up, I forgot to take my anti nausea. I don't swim without taking anti nausea because I just I get carsick, I get seasick, I get everything sick. I just, you know, so I hadn't taken it in time, and I really paid for it severely, and then kind of had a really good comeback swim where the end of my swim was really strong. So I was first out of the pool and feeling good, got on the bike, and it was it was reasonable. I was plugging away at it a couple days into the bike. I think it was about halfway through. We had some somewhat serious winds. Uh looking back, I think I can pinpoint exactly what happened. Um my position on the bike, I kind of shifted to try and compensate for for one knee that was feeling a little bit, you know, like it was taking wear. And then I did something that I I look back and I just think, what were you thinking? I I didn't switch, I didn't switch my pedals to flats till three-quarters of the way through, but I put on a pair of my Hoka running shoes and was trying to ride on my pedals in these super puffy running shoes.

Larry: 1:05:38

Oh, yeah.

Shanda: 1:05:39

Because I just couldn't stand the feeling of being locked into my clips anymore. What I didn't realize that I was the feel for the bike then? What I did was sabotage my entire run section because by trying to keep my feet onto the platform with these super bulky running shoes, I was putting a ton of wear and tear on my exterior parts of my quads.

Speaker 5: 1:06:08

Oh, yeah.

Shanda: 1:06:09

So, but not really realizing it because I was still just really invested in the race and not paying a lot of attention to that, just thinking I could push through. I got off the bike and got onto the run, and I had nothing in my exterior stabilizers. They they had been trying to keep my feet on the bike pedals with headwinds and everything else, and kind of felt like my race kind of fell apart right then and there. And you know, on top of that, dealing with women's issues that routinely face women during racing, yeah, and uh it just felt like kind of set set me up a little bit for disaster. So I had almost a day where I just kind of sat it out and said, I got some some serious things I need to deal with right now. And fortunately, even though my initial plan to, you know, grind out that race and and have a really good time, that plan went out the window. After kind of taking a bit of a step back and regrouping, I was able to just say, hey, you know what? It's most important that I just finish this race, even if like I wasn't my my stabilizers weren't killing me. There was just no power in them because I'd used it all up trying to keep my feet on the bike.

Larry: 1:07:40

So so on to plan F, onto plan F on to plan F.

Shanda: 1:07:45

And you know what? It wasn't like I was you know hurt and and injuring myself worse. It was just uh right things aren't working well, and the the best plan that you can go with right now is to just finish.

Larry: 1:07:57

And so can can I ask you a question on that? Is yes at at these races. Um, do they have Masseuse people there? Um, are you can you bring your own crew person that can work on you, or is it you're relying on one of those Tera guns? What's the rules on those sorts of things?

Shanda: 1:08:18

I would say yes to a couple of the bubbles. So, yes, uh, some of us bring the the massager guns. Yeah, I I bring one, it's been one of the most beneficial things that I can do. I use it on the bike too. When I come out of the swim, well, because so much of what you do, like brushing my teeth for time management, my brushing my teeth is done on the bike. I floss my teeth on the bike, brush my teeth, eat on the bike, anything you can think of. I I do on the bike. Yeah, and um so even using the massage gun, when I get out of the pool and onto the bike, my neck will be super cramped up, and I'll do you know, four or five or six rounds just trying to release my shoulders. I could stop, and quite often the race directors do provide a massage therapist, but when you're on the clock and you stop, that's to your detriment. And quite often when I'm wanting to do well time management-wise, you have to remember every second counts. And so even if a massage therapist is provided, it's you know, you better be getting your sleep while you're getting a massage if that's how it's gonna go. Yeah, in in Poland, we had uh a massage therapist that she was one of the best that I've ever had. And if I go back to Poland for a visit, I'm going to 100% hire her and and use her again. But she's she was just incredible. So yeah, does that does that help answer the question?

Larry: 1:09:52

Yeah, absolutely.

Shanda: 1:09:53

Yeah, yeah.

Larry: 1:09:54

So and even though you had this one disastrous day, um, you're still able to pull off of first place at this race.

Shanda: 1:10:05

Yeah, you know, uh, I mean, yeah, the rest of my time management was was okay. So yeah, but the the times when you push through and have races that are extremely difficult, even if it's not a world record time, those sometimes become the most meaningful races because you know it's in those low times that you're with the other racers and you're able to hear stories, you know, like some some of the most incredible stories come from Leah Sterkuic. She was, you know, under the communist regime in Romania, and her story is extraordinary of how her and her husband escaped and now live in the United States. And if if anybody could look up her story, it's Leah Sterkuik. It's just such an inspiration to me. And any time that she shares, you know, I'm just in awe and thinking, you know, this this woman is such a powerhouse. And it's those times when you get to, you know, spend time with the other athletes and hear their stories. And to me, that's the most inspiring part of racing, hands down.

Larry: 1:11:23

Yeah. And in in one of these races where you're racing multiple days, how much time would you spend with another athlete on the bike or on the run versus out there on your own?

Shanda: 1:11:36

Uh so much of that depends on uh what your schedule is versus what their schedule is and also what wattage you're pushing, you know, what what amount of kilometers per hour you're going. Uh typically I will spend a lot more time on the run course with the other athletes than I would say on the bike, because a lot of the courses you there's no rooms to safely ride side by side. And it's we're not drafting on on any of these races. So a lot of it is on the on the run course of it. And you know, whether you're walk running or sometimes you just have other other races that pair up well with the speed you're going at that time, and that's when you can, you know, really get to hear some of their stories or share with them, or you know, that and that's it's quite quite beautiful.

Larry: 1:12:34

We will be right back. Coming up on the next episode of 515 Ultra Podcast, I speak with Matt O'Brien, who will be competing after you much project in the code. That's why it's competent after you had a experience on a fucking boat in the open of our explain.

Matt: 1:13:01

I think it's a mixture of quite a few things with you know quite a few emotions, I guess, in there as well. But I can very distinctively remember after the boat was um floating, floating bail up, so I was kind of standing on the windscreen, uh looking thing up in water, kind of up to my chest. And I can remember like looking up when the helicopter comes down above us and you know the crewman's winching down or the paramedics winching down. And I can remember looking back towards the coast, and there was like this amazing sunset, and as traumatic and as terrible as the circumstances were, there's also that small part of you that kind of has to take that in and go, like, this is actually quite incredible, you know. Like thankfully, most people would go their lives without experiencing something like that. But it's it was hard to kind of not take in this incredible sunset and then this massive helicopter above you. And then um, yeah, a couple of months later, I decided to take some time off work. So we actually built another boat and fished another season, and then I took a bit of time off work and did a lap around Australia, and I got maybe uh maybe a month, two months into my trip, and was I just thought I I want to go and try and do that for a job. And that was yeah, yeah. So at the time I was still probably 150 kilos, zero exercise, just you know my geo cattle increases traveling around, and then yeah.

Larry: 1:14:26

That conversation with Matt O'Brien will be on my February 6th release. Um, he is going to be the confidence profile for DM Australia forthcoming. And now back to my conversation with WandaF. We pick it up with her heading off to another race on. Let's keep continuing through this journey of of Europe. You you spend another couple days resting and it's right back into uh a triathlon triple in back in Germany. So um I know this was not one of your favorite races of the year. Um, what what happened in in Germany?

Shanda: 1:15:11

Um, heading up to Ems Detton, uh that was the the race is incredibly well run. Uh if anybody could go to Ems Detton, I would recommend it if you want to do a short distance race.

Larry: 1:15:26

But I I can't even short distance.

Shanda: 1:15:31

I can't tell. I I I say to myself, what were you thinking? You have no business doing a triple. Your muscles are ready to do a DECA, and you're asking you're asking them to go from a marathon distance to a 5k. It's ridiculous, and I know better. So shame on me for even playing that game. Shame on me. Um, you know what? The the longer, the shorter that race is is some races, Larry. You can get away with, you know, women's issues. And I happen to be lucky enough to go into the swim in 18 degree water, and that was the morning of, you know, my women's day. Right. So I I struggled through the swim and I was cold and I was miserable and I was cramping. And uh I thought, okay, I made it through the swim of this distance I hate so much, and so got on the bike, and I think it was between 9 and 11 hours in, and I it was freezing cold and raining consistently, and I was really cramped up. Yeah, and I just looked in, I was like, you know what? What am I doing? This like I really like you you've finished four decades. What are you thinking? You have nothing to prove, you have nothing to prove whatsoever, and I just called it a day and went on to help crew for some of the other athletes and really ended up enjoying that race. Uh, David Clamp's daughter Harriet was there. I really enjoyed her company. Um, a couple other athletes were still competing, and you know, I helped make them eggs and salmon and went to the bakery every day and bought fresh croissants, and that was it turned out to be a really magical experience. So I don't have any regrets, even though the situation was less than enjoyable as far as racing at the time.

Larry: 1:17:35

Yeah. Well, you you know, uh, another friend of yours was on the podcast recently, Marius, and uh he had a very similar story where he pulled out of a race uh and just enjoyed riding through the countryside anyway at his own pace and his own course. And he said that was just as good.

Shanda: 1:17:56

Marius is is one of my favorite athletes out there competing, and you know, it is as hard on on me as any as any other competition I've had, but Kim and his wife, um Annella, they have made competition so joyous, and she is pitched in and and helped out cooking for other racers. She's not just babysitting him at a race, she's being a mummy to the rest of the racers too. And oh yeah, just a really really extraordinary couple. I I've had nothing but incredible things to say about them and and really great times with them.

Larry: 1:18:37

Yeah, yeah. And and of course, your your last race of the year in in Taiwan, he was there as well because I spoke to him just before Taiwan. And uh, for the people that listened to that episode, it was episode one of the season, season eight. He talked about he was going to do his own unofficial triple crown of ultra triathlon. And if you uh if you're wondering if he successfully completed it, he did. He got to the finish line there and got his own made-up unofficial triple crown of ultra tri.

Shanda: 1:19:12

I heard it was gonna be off with his head if he DNF'd that race. His wife was there cooking the entire race, even though the race director did above and beyond to feed us like copious amounts of food and incredible amount of volunteers at that race. That was an ex Taiwan is an extraordinary race.

Larry: 1:19:39

And and that was a first time race as well, was it not?

Shanda: 1:19:42

It sure was. And and the the uniqueness of that, um Ming Yi is the race director, and in in his 60s, he finished in 2023. He's done quite a number of races with me, but he finished. Within the cutoff times, a double deck in Mexico, after crashing, smashing his face, breaking his arm, and going to the hospital, he still finished the double deck at. It's extraordinary. And uh, these are the people that I get to race with. How cool is that?

Larry: 1:20:26

Even a little cut on your ankles, nothing.

Shanda: 1:20:29

It's nothing because not only has Ming Mingi finished a race with a broken arm, but Leah Starkewick in 2023 as well, crashed in Switzerland and also broke her wrist and finished the bike and the run of the double decay there, and still finished. That speaks volumes of these people. It's incredible. Yeah, you know, another another race that comes to mind really quickly. Uh Ronnie Rossler DNF'd the double deca with me in 2019 for you know a couple different issues he really struggled with. He came back in 2023 and finished second overall uh at the double deck in Mexico. And that was extraordinary to watch him come back and persevere and finish that race when it had been on his list of you know, wanting to do that. That was to watch him finish that race for me was really, really special.

Larry: 1:21:43

And and I'm guessing that's probably another one of the reasons why you do this is not not for your own finishes, but just seeing all the friends race after race and seeing their accomplishments and and being able to share in their enjoyment.

Shanda: 1:21:57

This is one of the biggest struggles that I have, you know, in winding this down as far as myself competing, retiring is is the hardest thing. Is is where does that put me with my ultra family and how can I still maintain contact? Am I gonna go back and help crew somebody? Or, you know, do I have to create a race here in Canada where they can all come here? You know, because you don't lose that sense of wanting to be around these people that you find very inspirational. You just have to go, well, where can I fit this in and how can I bring them all together? Can we create a race that doesn't involve swimming in chlorine?

Larry: 1:22:44

Well, you you have a pretty big lake there.

unknown: 1:22:47

Oh gosh.

Shanda: 1:22:49

The last word that I've heard is that uh insurance won't cover. I I think I heard this at some point from one of the race directors. Insurance will not cover athletes swimming overnight in a lake. And so I haven't looked into it enough to see if that is something that applies here in Canada. But you know, freshwater swimming would be incredible. If you had a lighted course in the water, that would be amazing.

Larry: 1:23:15

Yeah, yeah. Just put like a hundred drones up to follow around.

Shanda: 1:23:20

You know what? Every racer could swim with a lighted boy, and if anything goes wrong, you know where they are.

Speaker 5: 1:23:29

Yeah.

Shanda: 1:23:31

Anyway, anyway, we'll strategize later, Larry.

Larry: 1:23:35

And a GPS chip, obviously.

Shanda: 1:23:37

Right, right. Yeah, there you go. There you go. Problem problem solved.

unknown: 1:23:42

Yeah.

Larry: 1:23:43

Well, let's let's talk a little bit more about this uh Taiwan ultra. Um, I understand it was a very beautiful place where they where they held it. There was like um one of the temples or something was like the the main race central area. Can you tell me about that?

Shanda: 1:24:00

The easiest way to describe it, because you know, I had an image in my brain going into it of what it might be like. It's basically a couple football stadiums in size, and they've got these, you know, 40-foot-high statues guarding these palaces, and there's the main temple in the main area, like a football football field in itself, and then off to the sides, there's almost like a temple that's hotel accommodations on both sides of the main temple. So we were staying in in one side of that uh secondary part of the temple, and it was it was like hotel rooms, and that's also a first a first for me. Like in in Poland, we we stayed in the race director's home in Poland, and I thought this is posh, we've got a shower, you know, close by. But you know, Taiwan just upped the ante because uh nowhere have I ever had a race that was free. We still don't know how that was paid for, and apparently it's not polite to talk about it, so I just won't, but we we have no idea and to have free accommodations, you know. When I when I didn't finish that race, I could have, you know, booked a flight home. And I thought I'm never gonna have an opportunity in my life to rest in a hotel room and have no obligations, I don't have to work, I could just help the other racers out and lay in my bed. And I took 100% full advantage of that to rest my body and really relax and try to enjoy it as much as possible.

Larry: 1:25:49

Yeah, well, I I was following that race because I wanted to see how Marius was doing in it, and it got interrupted by a typhoon. So you've had a lot of weather this year.

Shanda: 1:26:02

And A, B, C, D, and E. Yeah, that that happened. Uh, that was going into day two of the bike, I believe. Uh, everything does kind of blur, so I'm not gonna give exacts, but I know it was midnight, midnight of one of the days that the race director got the call from the Taiwanese authorities that everything would be put on hold, right? Not just our race, but everything in general, and everybody was to clear the streets and vacate all premises and go inside. Right. And that was from midnight of that one evening until midnight of the next evening. So, and that was kind of like a play play it by ear for about 12 hours, and then it was finalized, you know, the following day that we'd be going back out on course um at midnight.

Larry: 1:27:00

Yeah. And and uh unfortunately for for your last race before retirement, this was a DNF for you. Um you talked a little bit about it earlier about how the chlorine affects your lungs. Um tell tell me how you made that decision to to stop that race, and at what point did you put retirement on the docket as well? Was it something about when you finished the race?

Shanda: 1:27:31

You well, retirement retirement hadn't been in the plan period. Um, I was still hell bent. There's a there's a double deck of this year in Brazil coming up, there's a a deck in South Africa. I had both of those already planned out to be at these races, you know, because so much is planned ahead in advance. So retirement was not even on my radar, yeah. And um going to Taiwan, I'd done I'd done one ride in particular with with Leia Goldstein, and we'd ridden to Edgewood and back from from my house, which you know it's a it's a five and a half hour climb up over the Monashi Pass, heading towards Nakusk, turn around and come back. And you know, she said we've averaged 25 kilometers an hour and we'd done a substantial amount. You know, I think it's 3,000, 3,000 feet each way of climbing. And she said, You're in the best shape of your life. So on flat, I should have been able to average 30 kilometers an hour, no problem. Um, my swim was pretty decent going in and should have should have been around the 19 hour range. My time management was really good, and they had in the pool on top of chlorine, they had these bromine, you know, those white bromine pucks that you put uh in the urinals, you put them in your hot tub too. Um, I didn't know why they had those on top of the chlorine, and it was making me sneeze, but it was, I wouldn't say it was any worse than any other pool. I think what's happening is over time and over each race, my body's just getting more and more pissed off, right? You know, from my initial damage up until now, and my body's getting angrier and angrier. I came out of the swim, and typically I'll have a day on the bike where you know, we joke that you sweat it out, you're sweating out the chlorine, you drink a lot of water, your nose runs for about a day, you're sneezing, your eyes are itchy, etc. All those things, and you're you're kind of lethargic feeling because I think it does, you know, affect your oxygen absorption for a little bit.

Speaker 5: 1:29:54

Right.

Shanda: 1:29:54

So a day went by on the bike, and I was struggling just to push 23 kilometers an hour. We're talking a perfectly flat course, right? Give or take with wind, there's no reason why I'm losing seven seven kilometers per hour.

Larry: 1:30:10

There was something wrong.

Shanda: 1:30:11

I knew there was something going on, and no matter how much I pushed, even when I did start to feel a little bit better, my nose is running, my my throat was itchy, and I was lethargic. And so when the typhoon warning came and we got pulled off course, I thought, great, one day rest. I mean, this is a this is a real benefit. I'm gonna have a hot cold shower and rest, and we'll be good. And I came back after that 24 hours off, and I was even worse. I was more lethargic, is all my lymph glands, you know, under my armpits and all in that area was really swollen up and hot. And I thought, have I reached toxic levels and my body is just finally like no. So I went out on the bike. I thought, okay, we'll give it a little bit. Maybe you need to flush your system out, drink a lot more water, get your lymphatic system moving. And I was on the bike for that day, and the next morning, I was like, this is insane. You know, I'm going and I'm doing oxygen therapy, I'm putting all this time, money, and energy into rebuilding my body. And then each time the pool hits me and it's hitting me worse and worse each time. And and when's this gonna be enough? And so I thought it. I know you're not supposed to make me-jerk reactions because a lot of the time you're fatigued, you're tired, but I was coming off a 24-hour break and still not being able to hit those numbers and thinking there's something really wrong. So I continued to bike, pace myself, and I really thought about it. And I thought about it, thought about it, thought about it, and I thought, I'm gonna have to make some hard calls, and I don't want to make these hard calls. So rather than just I didn't say anything to anybody, I just took my bike and I went back to my hotel room. And normally what I would do is, you know, phone Jax because he does, you know, he's been a great, you know, bouncing ideas off of, but also because he's seen me through all the race ups and downs, and you know, he gives me some pretty good feedback. And I didn't phone him. I sat there at the end of my bed and I just sat there and did some hard thinking, and I did a bit of crying, and I thought, you know, ultimately on the end, this is on me, it's my decision to make, and I've gotta be really I've gotta be okay with my decisions because that's that's my call, it's my body, yeah. And so I sat for another hour on it, and I thought, well, you're gonna make your decision, and the only thing that's gonna make this decision okay because I didn't want to stop, I didn't want to cancel next year, I didn't want to retire, but I knew I had to make the best decision for my body, and so I finally picked up the phone and phoned Jackson. It was strange because he said that's that's your choice, that's what you're gonna do, hey. And I don't know if he expected it, but uh he said, All right, well, he said, then if you're gonna make that call, he said, then it's gonna be you that's gonna let everybody know. It's gonna be you that's going to make that call because he said, you know, I'm in charge of updating and stuff, but you know, if you're if you're retiring, then this has got to come from you. And so I hung up the phone with him and had a bit more of a cry, and then I I thought, how can I address this and thank the people that have supported me and and also respect my body and really be okay with this. And it it all came back to I have to look at this with gratitude because when you look at things with gratitude, you can't be hostile. When you look at things with gratitude, you can't put blame on anybody else or anything. You can just look at it. I think it allows you to look at for what things are, and so that's that's all I could do, and and just did the best with it that I could in those, you know, those moments and everything after that.

Larry: 1:35:01

Yeah. Um have you given any thought to there was a medical issue involved that was outside of your regular lung problems, and that maybe you can find that out and and continue, or were you convinced like you know your body and it's time to call it?

Shanda: 1:35:22

Um if I can respond to that the best way possible, knowing my body, knowing the chlorine issues, yeah, that is I'm 100% convinced that that is the issue. The only reason I could say anything to back that up is because the day after I flew home, I went straight to work. And I still think I had either my crystals in my inner ear were a little bit out of whack, or I had some water in my in my ears still. And the the day after I went to work, I woke up the next morning and I was super dizzy, and I thought, oh great, well, you know, you can't drive to work. So I got my son to drive me to the hospital, and they did a ECG, so they checked my heart out, there's no irregularities. Uh, they did my blood work, my blood work is great, and uh, they took an x-ray of my lungs, which didn't show any fluid in my lungs. So, as far as anything else contributing aside from the toxicity and the underlying issues with chlorine that I have, yeah. Other than that, there's no obvious wear and tear from doing you know, 40 iron distance rathlons in one year. My knees don't hurt, my shoulders are great, my blood works great. So, yeah. But you know what it is. What are you gonna do without another pair of lungs? You know, and am I willing to put my lungs back into chlorine ever again? No, no, I won't even go in a hot tub. I'm done. Just yeah, my body reacts very adversely around chemicals, yeah. It's it's hypersensitive now, and why keep torturing it?

Larry: 1:37:21

So, yeah, no, that's you gotta do what you gotta do. You got a long life ahead of you. You can't can't sacrifice it for another another decad.

Shanda: 1:37:32

Yeah, so yeah, maybe some long distance lake swimming, who knows? I don't even like swimming, but I I love challenges, Larry.

Larry: 1:37:41

Yeah. But we'll get to that in just a second. Um well, with all of these races now in your rear view mirror, uh, one of the things that people are are listening to this podcast for is they want to know what their next challenge is going to be. And and some that are doing 515 distance are definitely looking to do doubles and triples and and maybe decas as well. Can can you tell us what was your favorite race and and a little bit about why?

Shanda: 1:38:10

One of my top favorite races was the Switzerland Double Decca in 2023. Uh, the backstory is that that organization had changed hands. Uh Norbert Laferter, he I just butchered his last name. I hope he forgives me. Um he had kind of put that double decay together because the athletes really wanted one. He didn't have nearly the volunteer base based on the fact that it was last minute, and he had really put that race together out of heart and soul. So for us to be able to even get to that race as athletes and to have that race offered was an absolute miracle. That that made it special to start out with secondary. My son was able to go as my crew. Um, we had days, days of rain. And it was a combination of the other athletes coming together and helping me, and you know, my son being there. I can't tell you what it's like in temperatures of nine degrees to come into a tent for your sleep, everything you have being wet, and to wake up and know that everything that you're going to put on clothes-wise is also going to be wet because you've exhausted your dry clothes, and to put on a wet jacket and go back out into the rain and cycle. Oh, that tests your character, Larry. You know, there's one of the most one of the most unique little things I can say is there's a time in Switzerland that we had um a lot of snails. Was just like a snail extravaganza. They're crawling all over slugs and snails.

Speaker 5: 1:40:06

Yeah.

Shanda: 1:40:07

And uh my son, forward thinking, at that point we didn't have salt, he went and sprayed his cologne around the outside of the tent, and not one, not one of the slugs came into the tent because they they were so repulsed by the obviously chemicals in the cologne. It's a laughable moment looking back now, but that race was really hard fought for. And you know, in the end of that race, when the the team from Lithuania found out that I was going a week later to start another double decade in uh in Mexico, they were taking bets that I wouldn't even make it through the swim. And so there's so many, so many special things that made that race really precious. But yeah, that was that was a great race. And to have my son there and you know, sell celebrate that together was was special.

Larry: 1:41:08

Yeah, having a family always makes it extra special.

Shanda: 1:41:12

Yeah.

Larry: 1:41:13

How about how about the hardest race? What's been the hardest race you've had to do?

Shanda: 1:41:18

There's there's many races where things were hard. I I think the following race, oh gosh, there's there's two that are standout. So let's let's start with well, we'll go back to the the double deck in 2023 after Switzerland. But a race that I feel was really, really hard was 2017. And uh I'll just tell you the whole story and I'll make it quick. I had done it, I had done a deck in Switzerland in August. And my only other race that year was a triple because I hadn't done a triple yet, so I was like, I'm gonna go back and do the triple distance. Okay. Um, and I flew to Virginia um a month or month and a half later to do the triple. Ended up finishing the triple. My dad was there with me, and our flights were booked back home. Um, we were in the Richmond airport um to fly back home. I'd watched them load my bike box onto the plane. You're gonna love this story. This is precious. And uh so they loaded my bike box on the plane. And Michael Ward from Guernsey, he's been one of my mentors since day one. He's a dear friend of mine, and he's promised to come to Canada next year to visit. So I'm I'm holding him to it in your podcast here. And uh, Michael, you heard it. Michael Ward. And uh he had been uh speaking to me because the following week, seven seven days later, he was starting the DECA in Mexico, and he didn't like, why didn't you come to this DECA? You're missing out on all your fun with your friends, and you you know, the whole peer pressure thing, right?

Speaker 5: 1:43:13

Yeah, yeah.

Shanda: 1:43:13

So I watched my bike getting loaded on there, and at some point I just thought, I want to go to Mexico, and I expected, you know, some things work together sometimes and things fall into place, and you can't explain why. Well, one of them was my mom had already been babysitting my son since Switzerland that year, and also with the triple. And so I fully expected her when I phoned her and said, I want to go to Mexico and race another DECA, you know, that's unheard of. Two decas in one year back then, yeah, that was unheard of, plus a triple. And uh, I expected her to say no, I won't babysit. And I put this forth to her because my dad said you better ask your mom. And she said, Yes, I'll babysit him. And I thought, no way. Okay, now I gotta get hold of the race director. And I don't, I didn't know Beto Villa at the time, and he was putting on that race, and I got a hold of Wayne Kurtz, and between those two guys, they got me into that race. And I went up to the counter and I had an hour before I was flying out of there. I went up to the counter and I said to the to the flight guy, I said, I've got an emergency. I needed to get my bike off that plane. And he looks at me and he's like, Well, what's your emergency? Then I told him, and I think he thought I was probably lost my mind because I explained to him what I was trying to do, and he immediately went forth to get my bike and my luggage off of that plane. Oh, nice, and then I'm sitting, I'm sitting at the Richmond Airport. I don't have a plan B. I just need to get to Mexico now because the race director is letting me into this race. And what made that race so hard is my feet. I didn't know a lot about foot care at that point. The triple had trashed my feet. Blisters-wise, I had some pretty deep blisters that I didn't know. They I didn't, they hadn't, they hadn't um, I don't know how you how do you say it? They they hadn't showed themselves yet.

Speaker 5: 1:45:20

Right.

Shanda: 1:45:21

And so I had some in in deep under the callus on my foot hot spots. And when I went to Mexico in the cooking hot weather, by the time I got not even halfway into the run section of that DECA, I had to date the most painful under my thick callus blisters that were pushing on my bone, and I can remember the feeling like your bone was breaking. And at some point, over 100 kilometers to go, I went up to one of the guys and I said to him, I said, give me a knife, because if I don't cut my feet and relieve the pressure of these super, super deep calluses, my bones are actually gonna physically break because that's how much pressure was on my bones.

Larry: 1:46:10

You you pulled the Rocky, cut me, Mick, cut me.

Shanda: 1:46:13

Oh, you just wait, it gets better. Uh, Laurent, also the race director um from the Bretzel Traff Lawn in Colmar. Yeah, he had a doctor there, and they were able to get a couple guys to sit on me without any pain medication. And I was laying face down and they sat on top of me, and that is where I was saying that really gross foot video. Oh, yeah, they cut open my heel and they cut open the front of my foot, and they were able to. If you look at the skin in that video, it's on my Instagram, way back at the beginning of my racing. The skin is literally that thick.

Larry: 1:46:56

Oh wow.

Shanda: 1:46:58

That's the size of a thin sheet of cardboard, and you can see in the video him peeling it back, and you can see how deep the blister goes, and it's absolutely insane. I don't know how I finished that race.

Larry: 1:47:11

Cool. I'll have to put the link on that one.

Shanda: 1:47:13

Oh man, it's awesome. You need to find it because that video goes down as I I don't know how I finish with that type of blisters that were that deep into the bones of my foot. But the neatest thing is when I came home a couple weeks later, uh, all of the skin, the entire soles of my feet and the sides of my feet, it shed off like a snake. And it was to me the most extraordinary thing because your body can regenerate. And I have absolutely my feet look absolutely normal right now. I don't have any scars on my feet. Yeah, it's so it's just so cool the body's regenerative you know capabilities. So that was number one, number two on toughest races, Mexico 2023 double decay. So coming out of the Switzerland double decay, I had a week to get to an entirely different continent, logistics, bike, everything else, and start the double decay there. In the swim, I had hallucinations. Um, I thought that the pool was not only curved, which it wasn't, um, but it I thought there were snakes all over the bottom of the pool. And you it's bizarre because you know what you're thinking isn't real, but it's almost like you don't want to put your feet down the bottom of the pool just in case you're wrong. It's a very hard thing to describe, and I think it was just I think my swim time was about 56 to 58 hours, and we'd had cooking hot temperatures during the day, and uh all of those things dehydration and heat, and you know, it all plays into the overall scheme of things. The swim was hard. I got onto the bike, and my first crash on the bike, I'm not typically a crasher, and that was the first crash on the bike, and I was going along in the evening, and I had had a bug fly into my eye, and I reached up split second to try and brush it out of my eye, and that caused a tiny bit of a swerve in my tire, and I caught three or four-inch curb. I caught the curb, and next thing I know, I went flying over clipped in, flying over the handlebars, the bike following me, and it was dark out, so I didn't realize I'd gone down this embankment and landed within six inches of a cactus. We're not talking a little cactus, we're talking about a really high cactus.

Larry: 1:50:03

Oh, yeah.

Shanda: 1:50:04

And I'd taken a lot of sounds like a cartoon. Oh, I'd taken a lot of skin off uh my knee, split my knee open, and taken quite a bit of skin off my leg. And at that point, in the crumpled position I was in with my bike still clipped in over my body, I just thought, I'm too tired to deal with this. And I don't think I I passed out on impact. I think I actually was just too tired to deal with the monstrosity of the situation, and I just went to sleep.

Larry: 1:50:38

And so, no, I think we had a reasonable time to have a nap.

Shanda: 1:50:42

I was just you don't, I didn't want to know because this is like this is my second double deck of this year. I didn't want to know if I'd hurt my shoulder or want to know if I had wrecked my race. I just wanted to have a little sleep and then face the challenges at hand. And I don't know how long I was there for. I don't imagine it was very long. But Heidi Lindemann, she was also racing with me and she's a nurse, and she saw the flashing light, I think, of my back of my bike, and immediately realized there's a situation at hand and and hauled me out of the ditch. And thank God she took some pictures because we could actually send them back home and also see where I was missing skin. And I remember having an argument with her because she's trying to get me to go back to the main area, and I'm telling her, no, it's like I didn't want her to question my uh functionality and that I was in my right mind, like I hadn't been smacked in the head. And so I was arguing with her saying I have to finish my loop because if I go back now, then I'm cutting course, and so I very stubbornly continued on to the checkpoint at the end of that loop where the timing chip is, and she was all, you know, I think upset with me because she thought I'd whacked my head harder than I did, and you know, here I've got all these missing pieces of skin the next day and that night because um they made me sit out for a couple hours. Jade was my crew at the beginning of that race, and they wanted to, you know, analyze me and make sure that I hadn't suffered a concussion, which is smart. Yeah, but I had a couple hours, you know, sitting out, and then consequently that night when I went to sleep, I wanted to let my cuts dry out. But my biggest mistake there was is I should have wrapped them in saran wrap or something because in letting them air out, they melded to my sleeping bag. And when I woke up, I had to pull the sleeping bag off my open cuts and my open, you know, scrapes, and that stands out as just a really miserable experience, and then trying to decide because part of you wants to cover up those areas, but also knowing that if they're they're not exposed, they're not going to dry out, and they need to dry out because you need a scar to form over top of that, you know, a scab to form. So part of the the miserableness of those next few days was burning my one side of my leg and my open exposed skin, and then I'd crash the next day in the rainstorm, and I I lost the skin on the other side of my leg. And it was the the I would get hot sun in the morning on my one injury, and I would get hot sun in the afternoon on the other side of my injury, and so it was just the bike was a pretty miserable experience for me, but you know what? That's that's okay. I went on to the run. You're gonna love this, and I'm gonna make it quick. Ronnie and I were competing back and forth, back and forth on the bike. You know, I'd crashed, I'd had a real bad go, and he was ahead of me. And I really like being in second position because then I can hunt the person ahead of me. It's it's a little fun game I play. And going into the run, he was ahead of me initially. And it was it was nighttime, and it was a big one kilometer loop around this zucchini field, and it was nighttime, and I decided because it was the same course over and over again, the same potholes, the same sand sections, you kind of get to know the course in the dark, and the moon was quite bright. And I thought, I'm gonna turn off my headlamp, I'm gonna run without it, and I'm going to run a little bit fast because I'm gonna sneak up on Ronnie. And by the time I catch him, I'm gonna pass him and he won't know where I am, so he's not gonna go faster or feel a sense of urgency. And that's exactly what I did. I didn't account for is I'm running and I step on a snake, and it coiled up around my ankle, and my heart felt like it was gonna blow up because I don't like snakes at all. I don't like them when they're close to me, far away from me. I just period don't really like them. Spiders as well. And it coiled up around my ankle and scared the living life out of me. And I screamed, all of a sudden he's gonna know where I am, and then I just ran and I ran faster than I've ever run because my heart felt like it was just gonna blow up. And when I finally got to him, I'm freaking out. You know, he may be your competitor, but he's still the only other human out there. And and you know what? I didn't continue to run without a headlamp, and thank God I never encountered a snake after that, but that will stand out as one of one of the times where I actually felt like I was going to have a heart attack on the race course. So terrible, so terrible.

Larry: 1:56:15

Oh, that's yeah.

Shanda: 1:56:16

Anyway, that that race was wild. There was a time where I was riding, not not entirely paying attention because there was a strip of road that was quite quite bare. And um I was riding and my head is dropped down, it's a straight stretch, and I'm just you know, kind of thinking about a whole bunch of different things, and I can smell I can smell this smell, and it smells like back home, you know, where the horses are in the barn. And I'm thinking, what is that smell? And but still not totally paying attention. I don't think I was really listening. There's so many sounds out there, yeah. And I look up, and there've been these wild donkeys running around on course, and there is a donkey, I guarantee you, he's six inches, and he's running right down the side with the other donkey, right down the side of the road in front of me. If I had if I had just pedaled a little bit faster, I would have run right into the ass of this donkey. And I thought to myself, can you imagine getting kicked in the face by a donkey and going home and telling somebody you would DNF to race because you ran into an ass? Can you imagine how stupid you'd feel? Yeah, that race, that race was something else. That race was something else. Yeah, those are those are some precious memories. Yeah.

Larry: 1:57:41

Yeah. Um you know, you you talk about the close encounters, these great stories, and and you've talked about the people that you've raked with. Uh you've given some of your kind of racing tips along the way. And I'm wondering um what's what would be your number one thing to to maybe impart on someone who's just starting out and doesn't want to learn it through trial and error like yourself? Um, like whether it's for planning before the race or in the race itself or some some hacks that you've figured out that you can do um that that make your rates easier. What can people that are doing a a DECA learn from you?

Shanda: 1:58:28

Number one, if you're going to do a DECA, I have confidence that the numbers are still so small that I expect you to contact me directly and reach out to me, and I will offer my experience as a resource. So that would be the number one thing to do. Reach out to Shanda Hill. Uh number two, bring a white bucket. And this has been a go-to because I watched one of the females that I race against get rhabdo. It doesn't affect everybody the same way. But I have always, always believed that the fluids coming out of you dictate a lot of what's going on in you. And if you're racing and you're peeing in a toilet, your pee is diluted. You're not gonna know exactly what it really looks like. Quite often more intense anyway. So this is not too far of a stretch, but get a white bucket or a white bowl, pee in that bowl, and seriously look at your urine. Because if your urine starts to get dark, you're going to have quite a few issues going on. And your kidney health is absolutely one of the number one things that's going to follow you through races. If you neglect that or you start taking ibuprofen or you know, paracetamol, any type of pain medication is going to put Stress on your kidneys and your liver, and you need to watch your urine. If it starts to get dark, get on your fluids. You know, don't neglect those things. So number one, that's huge. Number two is your nutrition, but fluids are the most important, and your intake of fluids on any given day. I know that on a 7K loop with reasonable temperatures, uh, a Gatorade size bottle, I'm taking in a quarter of that bottle no matter what, on a routine basis at any rate.

unknown: 2:00:38

Right.

Shanda: 2:00:39

If you're not peeing, you've got one of two factors going on right away, and that's either dehydration or your electrolyte balance is gonna be out.

Speaker 5: 2:00:49

Right.

Shanda: 2:00:49

So get on your electrolytes because your body, if it doesn't have the right amount of salts or potassium in it, it can't release the fluids, then you're gonna puff up. Right. You're gonna you're gonna get that bloat belly. That's that's a big deal. So that if I can impart just one thing, yeah, that's a big deal.

Larry: 2:01:11

And I was also going to ask about some of your training techniques, but from what I've understand, reading uh about you, you don't actually train. Can you can you can you can you like resolve that for me?

Shanda: 2:01:26

Well, I have experimented. I mean, as some people would say oxygen therapy, it's you know, 30 minutes two times a week. You could say that's training per se, but I don't know if that goes a long way, you know, when you're doing a deck and those kinds of distances. Before Italy, uh I rolled my bike, you know, two or three times, period, no more than 120 clicks ever. And my thoughts are uh, you know, having a job like landscaping, any type of physical job, working outside in the heat, all of those things, lifting, lifting stones, pushing a wheelbill, digging things out, all of those are a cross-training of sorts. And so many times I would treat my job like it was a race. So if an eight-hour day was great for everybody else, I would see what 10 or 12 or more hours felt like. And if I went home after eight hours, I would continue that at home and just treating everything else I did like is this benefiting me in my racing? So it's not training per se, but it's training of the brain. And if I could impart that, you know, there's so many other ways to train outside of the training. Because how do you train for distances like the distances that I've done? I think if I was to train specific swimming, biking, running, I would be worn out a long time ago. Yeah, I wouldn't have shoulder sockets to swim on.

Larry: 2:03:17

So with within your job, you're getting your functional strength training, and then you're just taking that and building in your aerobic capacity and working with the oxygen therapy and yeah, and going with that.

Shanda: 2:03:30

That's if if I could say to somebody, you know, they're like, I don't have time to train per se. Yeah, treat every activity you're doing like it's give it your hundred percent, yeah, you know, and and train your brain. When your brain's tired, well, you know what, it's gonna be tired during the race. And I say this, maybe it's worked for me, and I'm not saying that anybody else should do this, but I always figured if I can make everyday life in essence make it so miserable and so hard that when I went to a race, the race felt like a vacation. Right. I'm not kidding you. If you can pull, if you can manage your time at home, if you can pull a 14-hour day, if you can manage your home life like you are running that race already. So when you get to race and it feels like a vacation, I say it lightly, but you can really love and enjoy that experience to its full capacity.

Larry: 2:04:37

And and it probably lends itself to the idea that so much of endurance racing is mental. That that maybe the body training is is really a small part of being able to be mentally tough enough to finish it.

Shanda: 2:04:52

I I think on races where I mean Italy is a perfect example. I think you're training as you go, you know, maybe it's to my benefit that I spent a lot of time resting outside of racing. I wasn't sleep deprivation training, I was sleeping eight, nine hours a night because I needed that to build a function at work. And and so it was to my benefit that I was banking hours of sleep when I wasn't racing and I was getting proper, you know. If if I had a day off, I would lay on the couch because that's what my body felt like it needed to do.

Larry: 2:05:31

So yeah, you know, but that that being said, um uh is there a story about you cross-training by also wrestling an alligator?

Shanda: 2:05:47

There's a good story behind that. It starts at 2016. Um my second ultra race ever. I was at the in October of 2016, I was at the Quintuple Annville in Virginia, and I ran into Paul Bedard and something of the conversation. He'd been filming with Animal Planet, and you know, why don't you why don't you come to Florida? Well, of course, there's gonna be a race there, you know, the next year, but incorporate, you know, come and come and help me out with my alligator rescuing and wrestling alligators. And this turned into going back multiple times, and you know, uh Hector, one of the alligators in in the pit, uh that was a previous rescue. I really took a liking to him, and he took a liking to me. And and there's some wild images of this alligator sitting on my lap, which is the last thing in my life that I ever thought that I would be doing. I had how big is this alligator? I think he's about nine feet, and I'll have to send you the photos over, but I I never imagined in my wildest dreams that that might be something that was part of my life story, but it also tells you when an opportunity arises that is out of your comfort zone, and you choose to say, Yeah, why not? I'll try that. It can turn into something that's really extraordinary and makes for these really great stories. So I stopped going down there. I'd been back and forth quite a few times helping him go out and trap alligators. Uh, when they'd been reported on the alligator hotline in Florida, you know, on somebody's front lawn or you know, in the canal behind. Yeah, those things happen. And uh, so that's how that all came about. And uh just some really great stories. And and this one alligator named Hector that would come and sit on my lap. I don't know if he likes me or if he loves me. Um, I don't know if he even cares about me, but I was warm and he would always come over and he would let me if if I was petting him right behind his eyeballs, he close his eyes and it it looked like he genuinely was happy to be there. And those are experiences that I I I don't even know what to make of those, but they they're standout. That was that was a special point in my life. So maybe maybe in the future I'll go back.

Larry: 2:08:25

Well, well, speaking of the future with uh with retirement here from these ultra races, what sort of new challenges are you gonna put yourself into to get out of your comfort zone? What what's what are you looking at in the future?

Shanda: 2:08:39

Do you do you know what my biggest challenge has been? I I came back home and it's busy season for rental right now. I went to work the next day, and the biggest challenge has been saying I'm going to sit on this. I'm not gonna commit to anything, I'm not going to jump into what's next, I'm going to sit quietly, I'm going to listen to my body, and I'm going to really give this. I've Larry, I have been going nonstop since 2016, except for COVID, where I lost three years of racing. So if you count that in total, I've been almost seven years of going, what's next? What's next? And never anticipating that each year would get a little bit crazier than the last. That that is a huge thing to just sit on your hands and go, I'm not going to commit to anything. I've had many messages from many well-meaning athletes saying, come do this or come do that, or do adventure racing, or plan an absolutely insane race. Mar Marius said that before I left Taiwan, you know, we can plan something bigger and crazier. Sure we could. And it's a great idea. But I'm sitting on my hands right now and I'm just going, I can't believe the pace that I went at.

Larry: 2:10:33

Yeah. Well, that's that's amazing because uh, you know, most of the athletes that I talk to, they immediately go into depression when a race ends because they don't know what that next thing is, if they don't know what that next thing is. Like as soon as as soon as they've reached that goal of that race or that thing, if they don't have anything planned after it, it's like a a dive. And it sounds like for you, it's been the exact opposite. It's just been load off the shoulders.

Shanda: 2:11:05

I think that I I would be in denial if I said I haven't had moments of real sadness because I I see competitions coming up, and I know these people I love are going to be there. And there's a part of me that just wants to be there with them, even if I'm not competing. And at the same time, just like a grieving process when you lose somebody, I think it's very, very intuitive and it's very healthy to face all of these feelings and try to understand them, try to learn from them and and say, like, it's okay. Yeah, I still have all the other parts of my body working great. And if I can get my lungs, you know, put them through oxygen therapy and get them to a point where I'm I'm comfortable running again, then I'm still I'm still so far ahead that I have my health in all the other areas after everything I've done. I'm a lucky SOB. That's what I am, you know? So it's okay to sit and marinate. My time clock has been off since Taiwan. It is the 11th of December, and I came home on the 25th. I've been waking up at 3 a.m. every morning with absolutely no rhyme or reason. And rather than fight it and try and go back to bed, I've been going to sleep about 7 p.m. at night. But when I wake up at 3 a.m., Larry, I do something that I love more than anything, and I bake. And I bake cookies and I make bread, and the people at my workplace are being fed copious amounts of food simply because I'm immersing myself in the pure enjoyment that I lost a little bit of by going, going, going, going, right, and losing myself in 1940s and 1950s music. And I think my son probably puts his earplugs in when he goes to bed. But he says it's okay. So I wake up, I wake up at three o'clock and I bake and I make cookies and bars and I work with chocolate and it's all before I go to work in the morning, it's just beautiful. It's such a beautiful process.

Larry: 2:13:48

So that's great. Well, maybe maybe that's one of those things that you were giving up all those years when you were uh when you were doing your races that now you can go back to enjoy.

Shanda: 2:13:59

I I'm just gonna I'm just gonna feel all of the feels, Larry. Yeah while I'm in these moments. And when the right thing presents itself, then who knows? But I'm not planning it yet.

Larry: 2:14:12

Okay. Well, when you do plan it, let us know and we'll uh we'll let everybody else know through our social media that you're you got something coming up.

Shanda: 2:14:23

Maybe I'll become a hermit. Maybe, maybe this will be the last podcast you ever hear.

Larry: 2:14:31

Well, we hope not, but uh thank you for coming and doing the podcast. It's been uh extra special to to have someone 515 adjacent, uh way more than 515, come on the podcast. And that's part of the uh the new extension that I'm trying to do with the podcast this year. So thank you very much.

Shanda: 2:14:50

Larry, I'm I'm glad you're doing something that you seem to be enjoying. And uh I I do wish you success and and get a hold of get a hold of Jorge Rodriguez and speak to him because he is absolutely lovely.

Speaker 5: 2:15:07

All right.

Shanda: 2:15:08

And Michael Ward, too. You tell him that he'll give you an interview because of me.

Larry: 2:15:14

All right, we'll give that a shot.

Shanda: 2:15:16

Thank you, Larry.

Larry: 2:15:17

All right, thanks a lot.